Monday, March 22, 2010

Health Care Reform

I am willing to give it a try.

Anything that doesn't work can be adjusted or repealed.

I am saddened that it has become a wedge to further drive apart two extremist positions connected to the major political parties who believe they have the uncontested fealty of 100% of Americans.

They do not.

Republicans seem to feel that this bill is some kind of referendum that declares their laissez-faire policy toward all free enterprise, including health care, a failure. Well, it's not. But more legislation was needed to rein in greed, and Congresses dominated by Republicans had plenty of opportunity to file and pass it for many, many years. They didn't step up to the plate.

Democrats seem to feel that this bill gives them the opportunity to throw as much money as they want to at a problem, that cost-saving efficiencies and total coverage will pay for it, and oh-well-what-the-hay-we're-in-debt-up-to-our-eyeballs-anyway-so-how-can-this-make-it-much-worse. Well, it can. The savings numbers are optimistic to say the least, so we'll see. Congresses led by Democratic majorities had brief opportunities to file and pass legislation that would have helped over the years. They didn't step up to the plate.

Health care providers and insurance companies, with free rein to charge whatever they wanted to, give as many unnecessary tests as they wanted to, refuse care to whomever they wanted to, ran amuck.

And we all let them. Believers in Christ, and those who do not yet believe. We treated health care as if it were something sacred, and forgot what truly is sacred.

It was not that way in the early centuries of the Christian faith. While plagues ravaged Europe and outlying areas and a lot of non-believers abandoned cities to escape the contagions, a lot of Christians stayed behind and cared for their sick and dying - at risk to themselves, but at no risk to their faith or their promised destiny.

Some day, believers need to take back the care of the poor and the sick.

Will we step up to the plate?

26 comments:

preacherman said...

Awesome post!!!
I am for the health care reform bill. I know many ministers that do not have health care providedd by their churches. I was one of them and couldn't afford the cost of healthcare on my own. The boys were even on medicaide for a while becuase we made so little money in full time ministry. Thanks to my wife's great job we have health plan now but the cost for my entire family is outragious. I also have pre-existing conditions that have cost my family thousands upon thousands of dollars of out of pocket expenses. I am thankful for this reform because it includes now pre-existing conditions. Yes, if Christians actually took care of the poor and sick we wouldn't need the government to do it. But, Christians for the most part don't care about the earthly kingdom. They make the poor feel and those in need feel guilty for asking for help. Many believers have the mindset that the poor desevere it!, are lazy!, don't want to work!, brought it on themselves!, etc. It makes me sick!!

I think it is sad that no republicans voted for this bill. It sends the message of the only people we care about are the rich! We don't care about the poor, those who can't afford heath care, those with pre-existing conditions. It is if they have convenced themselves as what they are doing for the country is good, just like they did in okaying torture. Craziness...I will never vote republican again and neither will the 32 million amaricans who now have the opportunity to afford health care! I think this will hurt them in the worst way and to be known in histry as the party who voted against it.

I often feel disillusioned by what is happening with most Christians. An outsider. Like they don't speak for me. It seems like they are more passionate about politics than the kingdom of God and social justice on earth.

As Brian McLaren states in "A New Kind of Christianity", "My disillusionment was intensified by what was happening in the Christian community in America during the early 1980's and 1990's. A large number of both Protestant and Catholic leaders had aligned with a neoconservative political ideology, trumpeting what they called "conservative family values," but minimizing biblical community values. They supported wars of choice, defended torture, opposed evironmental protection, and seemed to care more about protecting the rich rom taxes than liberating the poor from poverty or minorities from racism. They spoke against big government as if big was bad, yet they see big military and big business as inherently good. They wanted to protect unborn human life inside the womb, but didn't care to to care about born human life in slums or prisons or nations they considered enemies. They loved to paint gay people as a threat to marriage, seeming to miss the irony that heterosexual people were damaging marriage at a furious pace without the help of gay couples. They consistently relegated females to second-class status, often while covering up for their fellow males when they fell into a scandle or committed criminal abuse. They interperted the Bible to favor the government of Israel and to marginalize Palestinians, and even before Sept. 11, 2001. I feared that through their influence Muslims were being cast as the new scapegoats, tarts of a sacry king of religious inspired bigotry...They had turned the way of Jesus, I felt, into the club of Pharisees, and they didn't speak for me...I increasingly understood why more and more of my friends winced when the name "Jesus" was mentioned in public. It wasn't due to a loss of respect for Jesus, but those who most used his name."

Kansas Bob said...

We will step up to the plate when we no longer focus on religious buildings/leaders and redirect our resources to help the poor. But I am not holding my breath :)

Steve said...

As I read your post I thought about the angel that appeared to Joshua. When Joshua asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" the angel answered "Neither, but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come."
I agree that it is time to step up to the plate. It is time for Christians to stop being religious and become Christ-like. It is time for us to stop worrying about democrat or republican and start answering as one of the soldiers in the army of the Lord.

Keith Brenton said...

Thanks, folks, for the comments.

I feel it's only fair to add that while health care providers and insurance companies were running amuck and legislators were looking the other way, attorneys were filing any malpractice lawsuit they wanted to, asking any amount of damages they wanted to, and courts/juries/judges were awarding any amount they wanted to.

Royce Ogle said...

It is not a done deal yet. I am pretty sure that after some wrangling and arm twisting in the Senate and then going back to the House a bill much like the one passed will become the law of the land.

My main objections to the bill are these. Parts of it are unconstitutional and it tramples on states rights.


Eventually the U.S. Supreme Court will decide these issues. I hope they follow the Constitution. Our country is a Constitutional Republic. The day we ignore this bedrock truth at the highest level of our justice system the United States is on her way to ruin.

Everyone can tell a sad story and I respect preacherman and am sorry for his plight. That being said, life isn't fair is it? Despite our noble and hopeful plans "the poor will always be with us".

Our problems are problems because we live in a broken world which is only a shadow of the creation God say is "Good". No man made plan will erase the corruption of sin and its effects on our world and its people.

President Obama will continue his quest for a government controlled society and eventually a one world government. It is coming, we just don't know when.

Margaret Thatcher commented on socialism saying: "The problem with socialism is that at some point you run out of other peoples money". At the rate our government is spending that day will be here sooner than later.

Royce

Kansas Bob said...

@Royce - maybe "That being said, life isn't fair is it?" is a good response to folks who complain about the new healthcare bill?

Keith Brenton said...

Royce, I'm actually more concerned that the bill infringes on individual rights, and where it does, I truly hope that the courts overturn it, and quickly.

Personally, I don't think that the phrase "the poor will always be with us" was ever meant to be an excuse for not serving them ... it's just that I believe serving the poor and sick is the right, the ministry and the responsibility of Christians, not the business of government nor the ministry of business. And we ought to take it back.

Jonathan said...

From my perspective, there is a significant fairness aspect to this (and I don't mean "it's unfair to take my money and give it to someone else"). The government is already subsidizing health care in the employer-subsidized market to the tune of $250 billion PER YEAR by excluding that form of income from income tax, and pre-existing conditions are not an issue in the
employer-based market because of government regulation (Health
Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996). Not so for the individual market...and, as Kinney indicated, the individual market stinks. I see the current bill as the government helping a minority have what it already helps the majority of us (who are already better off) to have...access to affordable health care.

Keith, what are your concerns about individual rights? I assume that it's the individual mandate, but we can't eliminate discrimination against pre-existing conditions without it. Thus, it's a necessary evil from my perspective.

Kansas Bob said...

I am all for taking care for the poor back Keith! Maybe we can start by selling off all of the religious real estate.. or converting them to food pantries and homeless shelters. Again, I am not holding my breath on that.

Royce Ogle said...

The goal of the Obama administration is to eliminate insurance companies, not make them more fair. How do I know? No insurance company can long exist that cannon manage its risks.

Obama's team is just now taking over the student loan program, away from private lenders. Where does this power grab stop?

Lets see...Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, the U.S. Postal Service, etc., etc., all broke. Why does any adult think the U.S. government will run health care any better?

Royce

Mike the Eyeguy said...

Well, it was a nice try, Keith. Very nice try.

I'll have some things to say about this over at my place once my cobweb head, brought on by a week's worth of good ol' fashioned Christian health care in Guatemala, clears a bit.

Blessings and peace to everyone regardless of where they stand on this debate. When Jesus says, "Do not be afraid," let's all take Him at His word, shall we?

laymond said...

I would post my opinions, but they would only mirror Kinney and Jonathan. But let me say this one thing, The mandate that all people be covered, that is not a new position to take, are you required to have insurance before you can drive a car legaly, I know we are, here in Texas, the republicans had no beef with that, why ? because it protected the rich driver from the poor driver, so why do they feel people's rights are trampled on in this bill? it does the same it protects the wealthy from paying for the less afluent, at the emergency room.

ben overby said...

Keith, health care is a problem for sure. And to jump to your conclusion, yes, we need to help the sick. In the end the Kingdom of God will swallow up all sickness and do away with death, and until then we need to our best to help the world where it is hurting.

However, as someone who manages a very successful cardiology clinic and a brand new pediatric acute care clinic, I'll assure you I can't get away with charging whatever I want to nor can i allow the doctors to order test for just any reason. I've signed a zillion contracts restricted the payment on procedures, visits, and tests in order to be "in network" with various insurers. And they all demand certain diagnoses to support a particular tests. Fraud happens when doctors "invent" diagnoses to support a test--that happens for sure, but I'd venture to say it is the exception rather than the rule.

I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars I've already lost with the pediatric clinic because my contracts only allow me to charge a certain amount. And I refuse to accept any public insurance (medicaid) due to the fact that the fee paid is an insult. It takes 305 dollars per hours in a 46 hour work-week to run that clinic. It will be 6 months before I turn the corner and begin to recover the predicted losses and start to work on a half million dollars in debt.

Our system isn't one where all the docs and insurers are getting rich. It's a business, more than anything else, with fees set to cover cost and produce, hopefully, a profit. Those cost include doctors salaries, nurses, techs, medicines, other overhead, etc. Technology, training, risk management, etc., all come with a price, and someone has to pay for it. Or else we can go back to a bartering system and trade a turkey for a dose of antibiotics. If we want exceptional care, then we have to pay for it one patient at a time.

Just thought I'd add that perspective for what its worth. : )

Ben Overby

Keith Brenton said...

I appreciate all the perspectives represented here ... especially those from the inside, like yours, Ben. I'm looking forward to EyeGuy Michael Brown's at his blog.

But I gotta tell you, in January, I got very painfully sick and ended up having to be shuttled to a clinic, two hospitals and a surgeon's clinic; had to give blood samples three times, had two x-rays and one CAT scan; saw four doctors, and was given a boatload of prescriptions. All in one day. The final diagnosis: a bowel obstruction aggravating a kidney stone. The urological surgeon wanted me to come back the next day so he could install a stint to ease the passage of the stone. I said no thanks. I've had several before.

I was mismanaged, and mostly because the doctors didn't communicate with each other. I was insured, though, so the total bill went over $6,000.

We all know that this kind of thing happens every day, especially when doctors from more than one health care system/ collective are involved on a single case (like mine).

Would I have been overmanaged if I had been uninsured, underinsured, poor, not white? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Rather than one comprehensive package, I would have much preferred individual legislation to address specific needs. But that's not how Congress works.

My cure was milk of magnesia and patience for the next three weeks until the stone passed. A little patince on the part of Congress might have resulted in helpful legislation that wasn't too big of a pill for anyone to swallow.

So, as I said, we'll see.
Maybe I'm the exception, but some studies say otherwise. And there are far too many people who are being denied care - or full care - because of insurance restrictions. doctors are affiliated with

Royce Ogle said...

Keith,

After spending over $1,000 for tests recently for digestive problems. (these were not the first tests, has been ongoing for years) acting on a doctor's tip she has found milk of magnesia to completely resolve the problem.

Perhaps some mile of magnesia, mineral oil, and some strong wine is all we need after all! LOL

kingdomseeking said...

I must first commend you for giving a fair critique of both major political parties. I know not everyone will agree with your assement but your critique sounds genuinely neutral (as much as anyone can be). Further, I agree with your assesment when you say "I am saddened that it has become a wedge to further drive apart two extremist positions connected to the major political parties who believe they have the uncontested fealty of 100% of Americans." To which I aslo concur with your response of "They do not."

Readers should know that I am pretty much an Anabaptist in my view towards civil government, although I do still believe it is permissible to vote if/when given the right and opportunity to do so. So that is my bias or the framework from which I express the following concern:

I am simply growing more and more concerned that Christians in the United States have allowed the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom which Jesus preached as good news having appeared to be eclipsed by their concern for matters of secular politics, bureaucracy, and honest patriotism. Further, my fear is that this eclipse is becoming so severe that Christians have begun equating their concerns for politics of the nation as the kingdom concerns of God and his gospel. It is a phenomenon called nationalism (a term I am sure most are have heard before) and it is an egregious yet subtle form of idolatry.

Based upon my understanding of scripture, it is my belief that God does will for all governments to act in a just manner and to that end, I can appreciate the concerns of Christians who raise the question of whether or not a particular government is acting in a just manner towards the people it serves and governs. However, as I listen to conversations taking place by Christians in the market place, as I listen to conversations taking place on the blogs, news-casts, etc... what I hear is not a concern for biblical justice. Instaed, I hear a concern for bureaucracy and constitutional procedures...are we to have a big or limited government, capitolistic or social, revisionist or founding father's intent, etc... And here is where, as I read scripture and see what God is concerned about, I must candidly reply that God could care less about the American constitution and what form of goverment we have. What God is conerned about is the Good News of his Kingdom and one of the by-products of that concern is the well-being of people - especially the poor. And not only that, but his conern is global and not preferential to the United States or any of its political allies.

I firmly believe that God is pleased when those who cannot care for themselves are cared for by others, regardless of what government forms assist in that endeavor. So what are Christians to do? Keep waiting for the government? Let's not be so naive. I am aware that philosophies such as communism, socialism, and immerialism have failed but it is an allusion for any one of us to think that capitolism has brought about equal justice for all. However, we are all believers in the good news to not only change people lives in a holistic sense (bringing redemption from sin, hope in place of despair, justice instead of poverty and oppression, etc...) if we all would recommitt ourselves to being simple witnesses of the good news and passionate about that alone. This is where I believe Christians can unite on if we could leave the politics in the trash-can and say once again "our business is the gospel of Jesus CHrist."

Grace and peace,

K. Rex Butts

P.S. I hope my comment has come across in a civil tone, for that is how I intend it to be heard. I am trying to speak candidly as I discuss this issue with my fellow Christians but I want to do so with a civil dialogue rooted in the mercy God has graciously shown me.

laymond said...

Ben said, "I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars I've already lost with the pediatric clinic because my contracts only allow me to charge a certain amount. And I refuse to accept any public insurance (medicaid) due to the fact that the fee paid is an insult. It takes 305 dollars per hours in a 46 hour work-week to run that clinic. It will be 6 months before I turn the corner and begin to recover the predicted losses and start to work on a half million dollars in debt."
I believe it is said somewhere that a Christian can't serve two "gods" God and money, this is the best reason I can think of to have "single payer" health care, but at least Ben told the truth, most people who are against the bill, are not that honest.

ben overby said...

Laymond,

I don't think I serve two God's. At least I try not too. But I could be deceiving myself.

Healthcare is no more fundamental, perhaps less so, than shelter. Paul was a tent maker. He wasn't giving tents away in order to support himself while in Corinth, for instance.

Jesus was a carpenter. Do we think he labored for free? Are we, people in the health industry, supposed to be excited about the threat of the government adjusting our revenue downward while at the same time still being responsible for payroll, malpractice insurance, risk compliance, rent, utilities, employee benefits, payroll taxes, cost of licensing, certifications, attorneys, accountants, etc.?

What if the government decides that the cost of home construction per square foot is just too high and steps in to subsidize and control the cost of construction, mandating that everyone purchase a home through one particular government ran mortgage company?

What if you were the construction worker or the contractor finding yourself working for pennies on the dollar and unable to pay your own bills as a result? You might just give up construction, layoff your employees, and find another trade, which is precisely what is going to happen with plenty of the physicians currently working. I've talked to some who are already taking steps to change occupations.

It costs 1.3 million dollars to run the cardiology practice each year (that's overhead and doesn't even include physician salaries--or cost of goods!). Expenses in the peds clinic are about 600k annually. I fix the fees we charge accordingly. Why? Because people need doctors! If we don't charge a certain amount, we close, and sick people get sicker. The government can stick it's long nose in this business if it wants to but it is courting disaster. It wants to effect the revenue side without doing anything about the expense side.

Let that happen to your business, whatever it is; that is, let the government threaten your revenues without decreasing your expenses, and consider what would happen.

Medicaid and Medicare are both examples of the government paying a fraction of the cost of the actual service. So what do we do? Raise our fees so that private payers make up the difference. Or, as with the peds clinic, saying No thank you, if you have publicly funded insurance, go somewhere else. The other option is to close our doors.

laymond said...

Ben, we all have a cross to bear, decisions to make, and there are no doubts we will all make wrong decisions from time to time, but when we set rules that defy the very thing that Christ demands of us, and apply those rules over and over, we could be in serious trouble.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Quote Ben, " And I refuse to accept any public insurance (medicaid) due to the fact that the fee paid is an insult."

When we ban sick children, and people with heart problems from our clinics simply because they are poor, we can neither claim to be a Christian, nor a Christian nation. When we ware the name Christian, and deny the poor healthcare or food and shelter, we do this in the name of Christ, I don't believe he smiles upon those who defile his name, the name above all others. The two things Jesus commands, care for the children and the poor, are neglected, no denied.

ben overby said...

Laymond,

You wrote, "When we ban sick children, and people with heart problems from our clinics simply because they are poor, we can neither claim to be a Christian, nor a Christian nation."

Let me suggest to you, as a matter of news, that this is not a Christian nation nor has it ever been. Nations are't Christian. Christians are Christian. This nation does not now, nor has it ever looked very much like Jesus.

Secondly, sick people aren't banned from health care. Turning away a kid with an upper respiratory infection isn't a disaster, especially when the parent is compassionately directed to a clinic a few miles away that accepts medicaid.

But, if you have a plan for running my clinics, if you know something I don't, like how to pay the banker without any money, then I'd love to hear about that plan. People who think they can get an exceptional level of health care at no cost have their heads buried in the sand. The options are to give health care away for free or tax people to force them to pay for someone else's health care.

There's nothing Christian about forcing people to give to the poor. Nothing. Jesus never taught it, and the apostle insisted on voluntary support of the widows and orphans and otherwise needy. God is not glorified through systems of taxation where people have to give or face penalty. It is not a symbol of a loving or caring nation, it is simply a fact of present political power and a multitude of IRS agents, nothing more nothing less.

Jesus never once suggested that so-called Christians pass their responsibility along to the government. And if Christians were doing the work of Jesus, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. If Christians want to band together and contribute to free clinics or not-for profit clinics, that heal in the name of the Lord, then I can't think of a better thing to do. But to generalize about who's a Christian and who is not a Christian on the basis of whether or not a clinic, as a matter of policy doesn't accept public insurance strains logic, pulling it terribly thin.

We don't accept public funds because we can't afford to, plain and simple. If you want to remedy that by making up the difference in revenue we'd need if we took medicaid, then I'd be grateful. I'll be happy to send you our PO Box number and the required sum. Otherwise, if we took your advice, we'd be out of business in less than a year, and the other clinics would be overburdened.

The clinic that sees medicaid patients does so at a cost. The place is dangerous, a frightful place to take a child, is filthy--described by many as a petri dish, and the employees are driven to provide great healthcare. They are going through the motions. Wait times are measured in hours, not minutes. Perhaps you know how to improve that clinic without the luxury of capital. I'd love to hear your advice.

Some of us actually have to think about this for a living. I don't have the luxury of over- generalizing or over simplifying the problem.

Ben O.

laymond said...

Ben,it is not my place to tell you what to do in any aspects of your life. but it is my duty as a Christian to tell the story of Jesus and the gospel he preached, the word of God placed in his mouth by his Father, it is not my place to judge you either, but the word Christian is the name one carries when they strive to follow the teachings of Christ, not by one who makes rules to disobey the very teachings of "do unto others as you would have then do unto you" or the teachings of Jesus about the good Samaratan, or love your neighbor as yourself, you said in the beginning of this dialog, I don't think I worship "the money god" but I could be wrong. You continue to say you do, what you do, for the money, I believe the bible says you worship what you care the most about, to me it is plain you care more about the money than the poor people who show up at your door, your last comment and the discription of the clinic you say you recomend to those, without money give a good insight to what you think of the less fortunate.
No it is not my place to judge, that job was given to the one your rules defy.

Royce Ogle said...

...even more foolisness!

If anyone thinks that everyone who works does not work for the money how about stopping the pay checks this Friday and see how many workers show up on Monday.

It amazes me that even though the investment in money and time necessary to be a heal care provider is enormous people expect them to work for minimum wage.

When this President gets done there will be fewer health care providers, the costs will be greater, insurance premiums higher, care rationed and taxes will be many times higher.

I was told just this week about a young woman who planned to go the med school and has now changed her mind because she can see that the reward will not be worth the 12 years of higher education, residency for several months with little pay, and student loans to pay off.

Way to go Congress!

Royce

kingdomseeking said...

Laymond,

One of the things about the blog is that we really do not know each commenter enough just from their comments to make implicating statements about whether a confessing Christian worships/idolizes something or someone else other than God as you seem to be making about Ben Overby. Not taht we ought to be in the business of making accusations any ways but we surely do not have enough information from snidbit comments to even begin to draw such conclusions.

I happen to have had the pleasure of knowing Ben Overby in the real world when both he and I were serving as preachers in New York State. We have prayed together, ate lunch together, and fellowshiped together on more than several occasions. So I believe I have some context from which I can clearly say that Ben is a Christian who puts God first in his life as a ardent devoted disciple of Jesus...and this even when it cost he and his family some very uncertain times and struggles.

Grace and peace,

Rex

ben overby said...

Laymond & Rex:

Laymond, it takes years of work and lots of money to build a railroad line and the trains that travel over it. But it takes little effort, and less "sense" to lay a log across the track wrecking the train and stopping traffic.

You appear quite capable of laying logs across the track, of using words to criticize and judge, but what you haven't done is tell us a single thing you'd do in order to provide health care without being a good steward over capital.

Again, you simplify a complicated issue, supposing people like me are caught in a dilemma between following Jesus or money. The fact of the matter is we can't follow Jesus if we're not responsible stewards over the little bit of creation he shares with us. You pretend the only responsibility I have is to "poor" kids. What about the people I've hired, their families, their children; people who quit other jobs to work with us...do I have a responsibility to them; that is, if I put on blinders and help only those who have no money, and run the business into the ground, have I been a wise servant of God or a fool?

Laymond, please tell us why Jesus healed only one man at the pool of Bethesda, and why did our King even ask that man's permission prior to restoring his ability to walk?

And a word about "poor." I lived for many years under the poverty level. My family qualified for all sorts of "entitlements," but I chose to never accept them. That was just a personal choice. We had no insurance, dental or health. I've been to several countries in Africa, and I've spent a lot of time visiting the "projects" in some of our big cities. There are lots of people in our country who have genuine need, but many of the people receiving entitlements are doing so because of decisions they've made and will continue to make. They are otherwise healthy and able to earn a good income, yet they choose not to and they know how to beat the system. And not a single one of those people would dare be considered poor in a remote village of Zambia of Malawi. We need a little perspective in this spoiled country.

Frankly, when a kid who is 30lbs overweight comes into our clinic wearing sneakers that cost 100.00, with a mom who is 50 lbs overweight, carrying a 500.00 purse, driving a nice, late model SUV that cost 80.00 to fill with gas, a wad of cash, AND a medicaid card, you'll forgive me if don't cry myself to sleep when I send them to another clinic.

You equate Medicaid with poverty. We are living in two different worlds with two distinctly different definitions of poverty. I've yet to turn away a patient who was really in "need." Never.

Rex, you're too kind. I remember those lunches, times of prayer, and mutual struggle. I was blessed with much grace from you while in New York. And, yes, it was because of my devotion to King Jesus that I quit full-time ministry. And it left me jobless for many months. This day two years ago I was going broke in New York. So I sort of chuckle when someone accuses me of serving money rather than God.

You're absolutely right. We should be cautious about the conclusions we draw about others based on limited information shared on a blog or other such mediums.

Ben O.

laymond said...

Ben, I know your history, I have read some of your old blogs, and read the reason why you quit, you certainly have that right. You tried it God's way and it didn't pay off very well, as you said you decided to go into the business world.What I don't understand is a preacher ex or otherwise that can say it is all about making money, you may have, but I don't recall one time in this conversation where you referred to "The Good" "your" clinics are doing for others. It has been about what you, your family, and your employees deserve. You would be suprized at just how many people say they are called to teach, then quit because of their financial situation, It saddens me that there are so many men standing in the pulpit dreaming of being somewhere else.

Ben said, "Laymond, please tell us why Jesus healed only one man at the pool of Bethesda, and why did our King even ask that man's permission prior to restoring his ability to walk?"
Ben, when you compare what you do to Jesus, maybe you did do the right thing when you stepped down from behind the podiem.We are the judge on what we will do, when we stand before Jesus he will be the judge on what we did. Standing against 30 million men women and children receiving good health care might not be acceptable (IMO)
I am not talking about your business, I am speaking of one's soul.

Keith Brenton said...

Let's drop it, gents.

Laymond, you've made your point. Ben has responded to it. Comes a time when pressing the point becomes tedious and personal.

Don't make me pull this blog over to the curb.